Transcript and Summary of Debate About Where Georgian Dream and Georgia is Going, From a Leftist and Conservative Perspective

In order for English speaking foreigners to understand better what is happening in Georgia, its imperative you hear what is actually being discussed in Georgia in Georgian languages because unfortunately, most of what is written in English is far from reality and are works of propaganda. Here is a transcript I wrote (it’s not word for word, but I tried :)

This was a debate between a socially conservative leftist (or a conservative who’s economically leftist) and someone who is a leftist, self-identified socialist.

Here is the link to the debate:

Moderator (64 Project):
What is your motivation for debating here?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
When I heard it was Giorgi—and he is from the academic sphere—I thought we could have a higher-calibre debate. That’s my motivation.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I’ve liked 64 Project debates before, and I think it’s good to have these kinds of discussions. I am a socialist. During the Namakhvani Dam protests, they called us Russian agents. On Post TV, they said we were UNM [United National Movement]. However, Nukri was in solidarity with us back then. I would like to debate that kind of opponent.

(One-Minute Introductions)

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
I am a historian. I am a conservative. I am also a leftist on many economic and social issues. Most importantly, I am anti-liberal. You’ve said that I agree with everything the government does, but I do not agree with their liberal parts. I agree with the direction it’s headed: anti-liberalism.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I know it’s generally weird for people to listen to leftist thoughts. I think this liberal-conservative dichotomy is a problem for humanity. It takes away from real issues. The real problem is that the 1% controls the world and wants us to go to war. This is why we should invigorate socialist thought.

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Topic 1: Political Crisis & The “Deep State”

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
On the “Deep State”—the way you asked the question made it sound like a conspiracy theory. Trump actively uses the term. In academic circles, look at Noam Chomsky’s “Manufacturing Consent,” which was even translated into Georgian by the US embassy. We see NGOs, Radio Liberty, NED, and USAID, which have tried to foment a coup against the government. There’s a 2016 book that also discusses the deep state. Mike Lofgren’s book, “The Deep State: The Fall of the Constitution and the Rise of a Shadow Government” talks about a “hybrid collusion industry” that operates without the consent of the people.
You might dismiss this as a Republican talking point, but there is a Democrat, Alfred McCoy, who wrote “Dark State.” There are organizations that specialize in the overthrow of governments. This isn’t a conspiracy; it’s a concept discussed in academia.
I just heard on The Guardian that Boris Johnson was given $1 million by the British defense forces to ruin the peace process between Ukraine and Russia. The pressure for a “second front” is related to this. There has been pressure on the Georgian government for years.
It started on “Gavrilov’s Night.” This was an attempt to bring back liberal hegemony. Two demands united then: one was an internal demand for the old elites to return to power, and the other was an external demand to drag Georgian society into the Ukraine-Russia conflict. We have heard many times from Ukrainians, and indirectly from US Ambassador Degnan, she was directed to push for aggressive politics against Russia. When the conflict happened between the Georgian government and the ambassador, the main emphasis was to bring back the liberal elites and involve Georgia in the Ukraine conflict.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I do not discount the Deep State. I’m not that type of figure. The deep state exists, but it’s a difficult thing to categorize. Using it can easily become conspiratorial. Maybe the deep state was involved here or there, or maybe it wasn’t. We aren’t debating its existence. I must speak about my own position.
I do not think we have a “Russian government” in Georgia. I think the Georgian Dream government is trying to find an alternative place for itself within the Western alliance. The government was not happy with the subordinate function it was offered.

The rhetoric was to mimic Estonia—to volunteer and sanction Russia. I am unequivocally against Georgia joining Russian sanctions; it was irrational. It was inappropriate to frame the topic as, “You must sanction the same way Central European nations do.”

The problem lies in the function. The Georgian Dream project is one of politically authoritarian capitalism—deregulated, authoritarian capitalism. What does this mean? It’s Aliyev-like. The West talks to Aliyev very normally. It’s a system where one party wins 80% of the vote and the rest are rudimentary, like the Iago-type parties.

The goal is the maximum exploitation of natural resources and workers, which is what we see now in Chiatura. The government went to Chiatura and told the people they “aren’t needy enough,” that they must endure even more austerity. The people protested, some sewed their mouths shut, and Post TV attacked them, asking “what strikes?” and claiming they are being organized from the outside.

Why am I against GD? Sure, they could pivot towards Russia and China. But this isn’t about a “Russian government.” This is about GD negotiating a new place for itself within the West, to get them to agree to a “Bidzina Capitalism” in this country. This system is about stealing from pensioners, exploiting workers, and then hiding behind rhetoric about sovereignty and family values.
It’s good that we have liberals and conservatives watching because labelling the government as “Russian” actually makes things easier for them. They want that narrative. They want a system that serves only Bidzina’s money and capital. Sometimes I laugh when I hear the government use words like “decolonization.” Their vision is for Georgia to be an exploitative transit route between Europe and China.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Giorgi talked about social problems but ignored the question of sovereignty. Economic oppression is related to it. For example, take the Frontera issue. An American company wasn’t paying its workers, and two people committed suicide. The Georgian government won a lawsuit against them. Then Senator Ted Cruz wrote an article claiming Georgia was experiencing democratic backsliding. After that, the Georgian government brought Frontera back.
We can’t talk about social issues without mentioning sovereignty. Look at this neocolonial setup: the Bank of Georgia’s owners are in the UK. A share of TBC bank was also part of Soros’s portfolio. They made 1.504 Billion in profit in 2024. They won’t allow you to have sovereignty; they won’t allow you to bring in a Chinese bank that would give out loans with 3-5% interest. People would have room to breathe if a Chinese bank was here.

There is a financial elite tied to the West that builds NGOs, a revolutionary class, and political parties here to stage a revolution.

When I started working for POST TV in 2019 I got a list of things we couldn’t talk about. The US embassy directly intervened and we were directed not to talk about the USA directly.

When we do not talk about sovereignty, we can’t talk about social issues.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I agree with a huge part of what you said. But you try to make it seem like the government is fighting back against this system. The people who own these resources... You bring up Frontera, a US company. But with the Namakhvani Dam, the government worked with a foreign government to pressure its own citizens for the foreign company’s profit. The people fought against this and faced police violence. The idea that the Georgian government is defending our sovereignty is unequivocally false.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
In the USSR, the nationalization of Chiatura couldn’t even happen until 1935. Do you want to nationalize Chiatura in a period where we don’t even have full sovereignty?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Georgian Dream wants to exploit these people. The future they are promising is one of even more exploitation.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
In foreign policy, with China, there is potential.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
When a dam project comes, what are the conditions? If the minimum wage is 20 Lari? If you have “yellow unions,” which we know exist—connected to the Gvirgvliani crime—and people like Petriashvili are working to break up strikes... The question is, who is supposed to use our resources?
I am not against Chinese capital. It’s silly to only allow Western capital. But under what conditions are they here? If they are here to build a casino, let’s talk about casinos. If they are going to build a dam, let’s talk about the dam. If they are going to build a road, let’s talk about the road.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Why is it illegitimate for the left to participate in protests with the opposition: The current political forces... there is no other power that can take over the government besides the opposition. These are the same people who took everything away—labor inspections, the labor code. Look at the EU’s 12 demands. None had anything to do with economics. One of them was that civil society needs to be involved in all policy-making. None of this movement is social in its essence.

I am saying this not to criticize the government for being liberal—I think a big part of it is still liberal—but to talk about the tendency, the direction in which it is arching.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
We disagree on the tendency. I believe this will be aggressive, authoritarian capitalism.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
If we speak from a socialist point of view, this will be capitalism. They will be capitalist. Whatever forwards it.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Yes, of course. I think there will be a dominant party that controls everything.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
You are speaking of a regime. What kind of regime? When I was in the Ministry of Education, I was never invited. Liberals control education. Liberals control the entire cultural sphere. Theaters are financed by banks that tell them to protest. The cultural sphere is under liberal hegemony, both culturally and financially.

During Saakashvili’s time, if you said something anti-government in an academic field, they would arrest your brother or someone. This is not a regime. Precisely because it is not a total regime, these kinds of revolutionary processes can still happen. If it were a regime, they would have dismantled the protests swiftly.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
From 2013, the police weren’t so dominant. It was a non-police regime where blackmail was used. The tendency now is towards the consolidation of capital and the consolidation of power. Bidzina wants something like Aliyev.
Look at the education system over 12 years. If conservative tendencies prevail in education, I think they will raise another generation of people who don’t care about Chiatura, because that’s what contemporary conservatism does globally. Name a conservative who is against the deep state and Trump. If they exist, show me! This is about the consolidation of power, not a connection to Russia. Let’s see what happens globally; I think the world is heading towards war.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Your description... because laws have become more strict, this is part of a police regime?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
When the evictions were happening, I was one of the organizers. Now, I can’t even make declarations like “we must fight against this” anymore. The government is enacting laws on behalf of the usurers. As a citizen, I feel I need to resist, but under these new laws, I am in danger of being jailed. I don’t know if someone like Khareba will decide my fate. Even declaring resistance is being criminalized.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
The police system, the response to the coup attempt... we had a lightweight police system, and of course, this is a response to the attempt at overthrowing the government. Once this threat is neutralized, things will change.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
What about Chiatura? Temo Gvelesiani is my friend who is in prison, and he just had a kid. He wasn’t even there at the fight. They took four leaders to prison. The police sent a provocateur. Their wives are crying; this is to silence the people on the outside.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
I don’t know these details. Regarding the mine, the mine is being subsidized now. The government didn’t sacrifice Chiatura. It was against the neoliberal logic; they took this step to keep an unprofitable mine working to save jobs.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
This is a positive step?? What social politics?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
They are subsidizing the factory when production is losing profit, just to keep jobs.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
These people are being fired from their jobs. They appointed a new manager. I don’t want to appeal to the fact that he is Russian—I don’t like that argument—but they brought in a Russian specialist in being a goon and roughing people up. The operation was to make the situation even worse for these people and then impose more austerity on them.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
What is happening in Chiatura is very different from the October 4th events. I agree with all the demands of the leftists there. On October 4th, the powers there...

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
The problem with the way you describe it is that you place the government outside of the problem. But the reality is, the government is side-by-side with the corporation, oppressing these workers together. You mention the demands of Chiatura... I feel bad even talking about it. I have had all kinds of problems but still I am shocked. Men my age have had strokes, and they are sewing their mouths shut. They keep saying they want to meet the government. And your TV, Post TV, and Imedi label them as “German communists” or whatever.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
In this “hot civil war” environment, these actors are organizing a revolution. When some people show up in Chiatura, the government believes this is just a continuation of the same process. Sometimes they are wrong, and I completely agree with you that Chiatura was not that kind of process.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
You think they didn’t know this was a different process in Chiatura? Maybe you don’t know. They knew who these people were and that all of Chiatura were their voters. They arrested them anyway.

Moderator:
From a leftist perspective, the “Sazmau” march (March at the Public Broadcasting) has been going on for a year, talking about “Fire the oligarchy” and being against the Georgian government. We need to talk about freedom of speech, which has become more repressive. More laws will be adopted soon: restrictions on face masks, a third refusal to comply with police becomes a criminal offense, you can’t block roads without a minimum number of people...

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
On Russia, I said my piece. I wasn’t able to actively participate in these leftist discussions recently. I am a leftist, and a lot of new people have emerged lately—enough that 100 people can become members and do voluntary work. This is good.
In my opinion, these protests should have stopped a long time ago. Even before the 4th of October, when ambiguous political forces... I cannot take responsibility for everyone. On the 4th of October, there were people present that I respect, but I said that this is unacctepable. When I heard that people took the 4th of October seriously (he laughs), I was amazed. I think they should have separated themselves from it. I don’t think those who stood there are betraying the leftist cause.

Moderator:
Can you talk about the reasons for the crisis?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I also feel like I didn’t do everything right. People I respect let Murtaz Zodelava (UNM) speak on the podium, to say what the police told him to say. There are two theories about that day, if it was a setup or not. Many of us are unhappy with the government. I was not on the side of boycotting the elections. There is torture of people. Second, there are titushky working with the police; they pay them. As a citizen of Georgia, this gives me anxiety. How can I resist this without supporting Murtaz Zodelava?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
I wanted to ask about the Ukraine-Russia proxy war. Without this context, nothing makes sense.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
What do you mean? This is a Russian invasion, in which the West is also involved, on the side of Ukraine. I don’t want the Ukrainian state to be totally destroyed.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
If it’s a proxy war, this is a threat. Do you fear a second front opening in Georgia?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Because of everything we said—marginalization, torture, exploitation—we must just swallow this?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Should we help these dangers, these political parties who want this war? Should we?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
No, we should never support any of them, no matter the circumstances.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
In order to defeat these political forces, what should be done? This is my logic.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
This isn’t about Georgia going to war. The Russian side, which even Trump has now joined.


Nukri Shoshiashvili:
No. The political forces that were trying to “Ukrainize” Georgia... There was a law, the agent law, a transparency law. You cannot legally bring money here to overthrow the government. You can describe things emotionally; I can too. How many Ukrainians are dying? It’s an existential fight. They had rights that Western countries don’t even have.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
You are painting a picture that there was a power here already prepared for militarism. I found the war aesthetic very anxiety-inducing. This masked man followed another man and split his head open.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
When you get a directive to disperse the protest, say there will always be excessive force, what about when someone stabbed a policeman?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
That is unacceptable.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
The level of aggressiveness shown from one side was met with the same level from the other side.

Moderator:
I understand the dangers. But when the government labels the entire opposition side with one word, as enemies—”everyone who is against me”—it’s a problem.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
There are parties that didn’t do this storming and they are in parliament. For years, the politics of disagreement was produced by them. Everything was “Russian.” This was so consensus that we ended up with this dynamic. Post TV didn’t exist before this dynamic existed. Post TV’s stance is: if you declare war against me, I will declare war against you.

Today is a rare day where I am in a liberal space, discussing. This doesn’t happen.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Me too! This is interesting. I say thank you again.

Moderator:
We want to create this kind of practice to host debates. 64 is in media, we were investigated by the part of an anti-corruption bureau. We fear these kinds of spaces won’t exist soon. I will not--

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Why do you say you will be closed? Just show them your financial reports and you won’t be closed.

Moderator:
I cannot speak about that.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I don’t want a consensus politics. We want to have a politics against all the things I just said were a problem.
Here’s a concrete example: Petre Mamradze was calling me a Natsi (pejorative term for UNM members). Your TV was calling me a Natsi, all of us are Natsis. I don’t have a place to speak my mind. Invite me to Post TV so I can speak.

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Topic 2: Sovereignty

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Sovereignty has dimensions. The territorial dimension, which Russia is violating. The economic dimension, which our neighbors and others are violating. And third, the political-spiritual dimension, which we are slowly getting back.
If we don’t have the third, we can’t get the first two.

Moderator:
Who is endangering sovereignty?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
I just named the three. The political-spiritual dimension was dominated by liberalism, maintained by Western institutions.
Giorgi probbaly knows Gerard Sussman, who wrote Democratic Myths. He talks about Soros, Freedom House, NED, etc., taking away sovereignty from countries.
When Giorgi said GD had the ability to take back education... they didn’t have the ability. There were spheres they didn’t control, like education. Leftists who now protest the courts today... during Saakashvili, workers always lost their cases. Now it’s reversed. It’s illogical to protest these kinds of courts from a leftist point of view.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I don’t think it’s about relativism. Every government influences others; it’s not symmetric. Look at the influence of the Israeli lobby in the US. The issue of Abkhazia and Ossetia is a real problem. How do we solve this? We can’t solve it by just aggressively screaming “Russia is an occupant.”
With the Namakhvani Dam, the Georgian state, together with the Turkish state, used the police to oppress its own citizens.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Conservatism is using this. Conservatism is a political ideology close to religiosity. Manu Chao has a song, “Neverending Sadness.” It says, “the wind still blows from Washington.” It still blows from Washington, even though conservatives are in charge there now. Conservatism comes from the Euro-Atlantic space, the Anglo-Saxon space. It’s about periphery, exploitation, etc.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Conservatism here was a reaction. In Georgia, it was a totalitarianism of liberalism. If you were not a liberal, you were marginalized; your social career was over. It was a reaction to gender and sex issues, a reaction to the feeling that “they” were trying to take your kids away.
In our situation, conservatism allows us, in our independent history, to figure out who we are. This gives us a chance. First, it was Soros, then another, then another, telling us who we are. Our entire education system was destroyed. It was already in crisis, but they destroyed it. Our identity was completely oppressed.
This “Gen Z”... it’s not a generation. It is a social formation of the NGO class.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
There are a lot of conservatives in Gen Z.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Gen Z is a social category they co-opted; that’s another topic. This “coup” attempt, Georgian conservatism is a reaction against that oppression. You shouldn’t be against it as a leftist. If you go to church, apparently you’re, you shouldn’t add to the cultural oppression. Second, to figure out your identity, our education system should not be so monopolized by liberal ideology. It’s a factory. You should have the chance to think about who you are. Conservatism gives you the chance for that.
The leftist movement is not strong. If it were, it would be very different. You couldn’t create a strong leftist movement for years.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
That’s how it is worldwide.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
In Greece, we remember Syriza... We need the ability to have relations with China, which you don’t have when you’re tied to the West.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I can’t say I am someone who only wants relations with the West.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Trump has one positive impact: he disrupts the liberal hegemony. I do not care what his domestic policies are otherwise.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Conservatism is a Western ideology.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
All ideologies are Western.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
There are two international ideologies, and both are regressive. Culturally, “Woke Culture,” etc., has been instrumentalized. The richest people—Elon Musk, Peter Thiel—the empire is changing its skin and saying “we are now conservative.” The masses are talking about LGBT, immigrants... It ignores that nowhere in history have the richest people controlled this much wealth, and never has the world been as genocidal as it is today. I’m talking about the West and Russia!
The social platforms that control us change our behavior. Either we find some progressive ideas, or we go to world war—and we are heading towards world war. Trump renamed the “War Department” from the “Department of Defense.” I want to change conservatives towards leftism, not become conservative.

Moderator:
Is the Georgian government truly conservative or not?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
The previous hegemony was liberal. We are a post-Soviet country; it came from that. Leftists should be for breaking this. Liberalism couldn’t destroy everything; our identity was maintained by the Church and the lower classes. As a political formation, we didn’t have the resources to do anything else.
The West doens’t have time to ideological pressure us anymore. Now we have time and space. Hopefully, we have 5-10 years to develop our own self before they make the time. We have only been asking, “Are we European enough?” “Are we fitting into trends in Europe?” No. We can create an authentic self. For this, we need academic freedom, studies different from what we’ve been getting. The grant system needs to be totally changed.
In the 1930s, a national, unified academic system was created. The Georgian grammar was created, foundations for the Georgian language. We can recreate all of this today.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
What you are talking about is creating traditions, which in itself is not bad. But in reality, Georgians didn’t have a conservative ideology traditionally. The end of the 19th century, it was never a big force. It was leftists and liberals. Mainly Bolsheviks and Mensheviks. The nation was resisting against capitalism and the Russian empire, and we had socialists. First, we had the First Republic, and then the Soviet Union.
The conservatism that exists today is Western conservatism. You have the right to it. But what will be created here that doesn’t exist in other countries?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
We will synthesize our culture. China needs to come in. We synthesize East and West.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Let me say it again: what conditions do we have for these investors? If they are going to build a whorehouse, I don’t want that. Our tradition in the 19th and 20th centuries is socialism! It is not conservatism. Conservatism was associated with the Russian empire.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Our conservatism is inherently leftist!

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Which part is socialist?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Look at Vasadze. He speaks about collectivity. It was about creating a social welfare state.
You know what the problem with leftists is? They are culturally liberal. Mainstream leftists would work with Soros. They have no problem taking part with liberals.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
This is state propaganda—and I’m not saying you are bad, I believe you are in good faith—but you are also part of it.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
At Post TV, I don’t think of myself as propagandist. I see myself as part of a project that works to pull Georgian Dream away from liberalism.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
You are marking a lot of people with the same brush. I hear this a lot. This is not a formulated flank. I am talking about meaningful action.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
When you want to be part of something and also divide... We talk about liberal-leftists. Do they stand next to liberals or not? Leftists could have played a big role in conservatism. It could have been conservative on the outside and socialist inside.

(Discussion on the “Middle Corridor”)

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
So you’re saying Georgia will be a “Middle Corridor” between Europe and Asia, but it won’t be authoritarian capitalist, according to you?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
I think we will be a buffer state. I see it as existential survival. I do not believe we will be part of the EU. We need peace here. I see a new dark epoch approaching. For existential survival, you must be flexible. We need a stable state without a revolutionary class internally.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
If this is about existential survival, where do conservative values go? They must stand higher than mere survival, right?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
This doesn’t interfere with Realpolitik. Georgia should be a buffer in these conflicts between big powers. Everyone is talking about this. The moral imperative is to save your people, to keep Georgia from devastation.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I also share the view that we are entering a dark age. But I would add that you, as a supporter of this regime, are advocating for a future that includes a one-party police regime. Chiatura, Rustaveli, Kazreti will all be exploited.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
The logic of sovereignty means that if you become more closed off, you are actually more sensitive to the attitudes of your local citizens. You take them more into account. In this instance--

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
(Interrupting) You are closed off, so you think they will be more sensitive to the local population? Three thousand people are getting together, they have bank loans, and they are hungry and where is the sensitivity to them?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
They have loans from banks controlled by the West. The West doesn’t allow you to bring in other banks with lower rates.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
The people who are organizing... if you are in collusion with the West, Russia, whoever, and you can arrest these leaders, what “attitudes” are you speaking of? The boys sewed their mouths. I was there when one of them... it was heavy. There was no solidarity from, for example, Imedi TV. Have you been to Kazreti?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
There is a problem for sure.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
This is not a “problem.” This is pressure from above.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
What you are saying is that you speak of a problem without a solution. You have two solutions: the current political forces or the opposition.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
There is no third.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
There is no third option.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
We must create a third option.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
How? You can’t create it because there is foreign pressure.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Workers can’t organize? Is that what you are saying? There will always be influence.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
You need minimum political stability.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Are you saying we should reach stability before the working class can organize?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
When was there successful resistance by the working class historically? It was when there was--

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
(Interrupting) Sovereignty is not related to resistance by the working class. They called Lenin a foreign agent, etc. They were said to be from the outside. The criteria is: Can people organize to defend their interests? The working class?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Everything is framed by the liberal media. How can you use their instruments to organize the working class?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
What you are saying is... the people of Chiatura didn’t care about “Liberty” or “Freedom” channels, and they were arrested anyway.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Do you want sovereignty or not?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Liberalism is defeated. Putin is a conservative, Trump is a conservative, Netanyahu is a conservative. Who else is left?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
It ended on the 4th of October.

The debate on sovereignty ended.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
A question: Liberal hegemony is over, but it is still culturally hegemonic. Leftism will never be strong under the hegemony of liberalism. Do you agree?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
The umbrella...

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Soros, grants, etc.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
It can’t be. I just saw the new DiCaprio film, “One battle after another.” Liberalism subsumes leftism into a fight entirely about minority oppression. I am not against minorities, but the revolution is happening without a class dimension. The problem is class. A fistful of people owns everything and is bringing the world to total destruction.
Leftism must be autonomous and international. The Bolsheviks used to rob banks for funding. That money isn’t there now. You have to get money either from business or from grants.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
A question for you: Would you describe Namakhvani Dam protests as a “sovereignty-verifying protest.” Do you agree?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
Yes, to some extent. No one knew about the contract. After that, it was confusing because the government took a step and broke the contract.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
ENKA is the one that broke the contract. This kind of polarization minimizes the real issue. This was about both sovereignty and social justice.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
On Frontera, this movement... are these movements supporting the overthrow of the government?

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Are the Rioni Valley Defenders supporting the coup?

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
No, no. I am speaking about the general sentiment of “if there is no justice, there will be no peace.”

Moderator:
I don’t think it’s fair to say everyone in these protests supports overthrowing the government.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
If you are part of these protests which are led by them, no matter how you feel individually--

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
Most of the people in these protests--

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
How? They openly talk about being financed by these leaders. Nanuka Zhorzholiani writes the budget openly.

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
I’m talking about the boys from Tbilisi. They went there to say “I am against this government,” not “I support Murtaz Zodelava.” You say this is about sovereignty and social justice. Then why does your TV call them (Dam protestors) Russian? They can’t handle real, organic movements from the people.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
The money that keeps coming in... it’s about energy independence. It is part of sovereignty. Turkey--

Giorgi Gvinjilia:
(Interrupting) This was not about energy independence; it was the destruction of energy independence.

Nukri Shoshiashvili:
I agree with you, of course. The green movement... There is an interest not to let us be independent.

Then it was question and answer.