Bidzina and Salome Interviews: War of Two Georgias

Both Bidzina Ivanishvili and Salome Zurabishvili gave interviews back to back, here are the main points from both!

Monday, Bidzina Ivanishvili, the founder of Georgian Dream, the ruling party had an interview. The following day, opposition side, President Salome Zurabishvili had an interview of her own to counter to Bidzina’s interview. I include my commentary and the interview highlights below.

Summary

The interviews with Bidzina Ivanishvili and Salome Zurabishvili reveal a deep rift in Georgia's politics. Ivanishvili expresses confidence in the maturity of Georgian society, urging independent thought on political matters. He warns against some people in the West pressuring to open a second front against Russia, claiming that Georgian Dream has resisted these demands to keep the country out of war. He sees himself as a protector of Georgia’s sovereignty and accuses the United National Movement (UNM) of being pawns of foreign powers that seek to destabilize the nation. He also mentions his struggles with Credit Suisse, implying they are politically motivated. His message is defensive, advocating for a path independent of both Russia and the West, while stressing the importance of rebuilding ties with the US.

In contrast, Zurabishvili, in her interview takes a firm pro-European stance. She argues that the upcoming elections are crucial, presenting a clear choice between aligning with Russia or the EU. She criticizes Georgian Dream’s tilt toward Russia and positions herself as the champion of Georgia’s pro-Western majority. She insists on her role in shaping a coalition government, claiming authority to hold the four pro-European coalitions accountable and to choose a neutral prime minister. She dismisses Ivanishvili’s claims about his financial troubles as outdated Soviet conspiracy theory mindset.

While Ivanishvili is cautious about foreign involvement, Zurabishvili advocates for ardent pro-EU stance as a means to ensure stability and democracy; however, Zurabishvili's assertion that she will determine the future government formed by the pro-Western coalitions, including the choice of prime minister, raises serious democratic concerns. As an outgoing president not seeking re-election, her influence should be limited. In a true democracy, forming a coalition government is the result of negotiations among elected parties based on election outcomes, not dictated by someone no longer accountable to voters. Her claim undermines the principle that decision-makers must be chosen by and remain answerable to the electorate. This concentration of power in a non-elected figure sidesteps democratic norms of collective decision-making and electoral legitimacy.

Bidzina’s Interview

Bidzina Ivanishvili's interview with Imedi TV conveyed an attitude of trust in society's maturity. He presented himself as transparent, sharing his thoughts on key events and allowing the public to gain insight into what was happening behind the scenes. His approach suggested confidence that people would make informed decisions, leaving it up to society to reflect on the issues and come to their own conclusions.

Here are the main takeaways. 

Ivanishvili discussed how European politicians avoid allowing NATO intervention in Georgia and Ukraine. He claims that forces in the West wanted Georgia to open a second front during the war but that Georgian Dream resisted, forcing them to create challenges for the party, including the resignation of Prime Minister Gakharia. Ivanishvili discussed how European politicians avoid allowing NATO intervention in Georgia and Ukraine. He claims that forces in the West wanted Georgia to open a second front during the war but that Georgian Dream resisted, forcing them to create challenges for the party, including the resignation of Prime Minister Gakharia.

There was an incident involving former Prime Minister Irakli Gharibashvili, where a high-ranking official from another country discussed the possibility of opening a second front. Gharibashvili asked, "How long do you think we could hold out in such a conflict? How many days could we endure?" The official replied, "Probably 3-4 days." Gharibashvili then questioned, "You're willing to destroy us for the sake of 3-4 days?" The official responded, "There are 3 million of you—they can't kill all of you in 3-4 days. You could retreat to the forest and start a guerrilla movement. We'll provide support, and you can continue the fight from there."

Ivanishvili believes Georgian society has matured and is more aware of foreign political interventions. He criticizes the opposition as "pseudo-liberals" and says there is more media freedom now compared to the past when media was monopolized and freer than many countries where media is totally monopolized. He claims that foreign powers cannot create a "virtual reality" in Georgia anymore, as the society has learned from past experiences.

When asked if he was prioritizing his personal financial interests over the country as the critics say, Ivanishvili asserted the opposite. He explained that his assets were frozen shortly after the war (Russian war with Ukraine) began, suggesting this was an attempt to pressure him politically. He believes these actions were intended to force him into making decisions under duress, as his funds were frozen for a year and a half. His accounts were locked, and he was told to attend meetings; he perceived this as extortion aimed at extracting political concessions through his personal finances. Consequently, he refrained from meeting with Western politicians for 1.5 years under these circumstances. Now that the matter has been resolved, he is ready to meet. 

When the war started, everything I owned was frozen within two weeks. I couldn't bring my helicopter from Germany for a long time or retrieve artwork from warehouses. It took months of agitation before they realized I wouldn’t go quietly. I was in court for 1.5 years just to access my own money. Is this normal? Let society decide.

Eventually, I got my money back from another bank, not Credit Suisse. Then after finishing a court case in Singapore with Credit Suisse. They didn’t pay me promptly and chose to delay payments up until the court ordered deadline while they paid exorbitant daily fees in order to keep me from accessing my money.

I felt like they were artificially freezing my funds while telling the EU and US to meet with me, using my money as leverage. I told them there was no point in meeting because I couldn’t make decisions under these circumstances. I conveyed this to the US ambassador: release my money first before discussing political matters regarding my country. I have emails documenting this.

I'm not being arrogant or rude; I just can't prioritize my personal financial interests over my country’s political decisions. How else was I supposed to interpret what was happening? They froze my money in such a blatant way and then invited me to a meeting. Am I seeing things? I'm sure the opposition will claim I'm making it all up.

Ivanishvili stresses that Georgia needs to avoid getting involved in foreign conflicts, particularly with the tension in the Middle East and Ukraine. He suggests that some people in the West are pushing for Georgia to become involved in wars, but the Georgian Dream has resisted.

Ivanishvili accuses the opposition, the United National Movement (UNM), of being backed by external forces that aim to destabilize the country. He believes that these forces are destructive and calls for their ban, likening the situation to historical precedents like the Nuremberg Trials.

Bidzina Ivanishvili has expressed that he considers LGBTQ+ individuals a normal part of society with full rights to be protected from discrimination. He believes the anti-discrimination law he passed — despite significant challenges — protects the rights of LGBTQ+ individuals. However, Ivanishvili maintains that while personal lives are private matters, LGBTQ+ groups do not have the right to engage in what he terms “propaganda.” He argues that Georgian society sees such advocacy as infringing on their own rights. Citing various examples from Western countries, he suggests that promoting LGBTQ+ rights can go too far. In his view, allowing events like Gay Pride could open a Pandora's box, giving excessive and potentially harmful importance to issues of gender and sexuality. 

He says he didn’t even know the term “stigmatization,” and the prime minister of Georgian patiently taught it to him. He defends the foreign influence law, saying it is necessary for transparency and argues that those opposed to it are hiding their true intentions of funding revolutions. He claims many countries have similar laws and that the EU had to pause its own adoption of such a law because they were pressuring Georgia about while simultaneously trying to pass one. 

Ivanishvili stresses that Georgia’s path is its own, not defined by a choice between the West and Russia. He emphasizes that while Georgia aspires to EU values, it does not want to enter the EU in a weakened or compromised state. 

The opposition has only one message: ‘We’ll take you to the EU, and the Georgian Dream is taking you to Russia.’ They haven’t yet realized that Georgia exists as its own entity. It’s our homeland, and the government's purpose is to defend the country. We’re not striving for anyone else – we’re striving for Georgia. Not for the West or Russia, but for our own country. They haven’t understood this yet.

Why was the EU interesting in the first place? It’s because of its Christian values, fair competition, business protection, individual rights, and independent judiciary. In every aspect, we’ve made incredible progress, and we rank highly. The EU is not just a territory; it’s a set of values. And we have those values, having made marvelous progress.

Where is the evidence that we are leading Georgia towards Russia? How is the opposition leading Georgia towards the EU, and how are we supposedly failing to do so? With all due respect to Ukraine – I’m a friend of Ukraine – I wouldn’t want to join the EU in the same way they are. Even Moldova – entering like that doesn’t interest me. I want us to join the EU with our heads held high.

Ivanishvili reiterated the concept of the "Global War Party," a force he says operates within both Georgia and internationally, pushing for war and instability. It’s sometimes referred to as “Deep State.” He says UNM is a local war party and claims Georgian society is sophisticated enough to resist its influence.

Salome’s Interview

In her interview with Formula News, Salome Zurabishvili stresses the critical nature of the 2024 elections. She presents a clear choice: align with the EU or fall under Russian influence. She argues that Georgian Dream is veering toward Russia, despite a pro-European sentiment among Georgians. Zurabishvili assures voters their choices will be private, dismissing fears of voting machine tampering.

She emphasizes her role in shaping the future government, asserting that she will hold the four pro-Western coalitions accountable, as they all signed her Georgian Charter. She claims authority over the coalition's government formation, including the power to choose a neutral prime minister to unify them. Furthermore, she criticizes Bidzina Ivanishvili for his conspiracy theories and for yielding to Russian pressure.

Salome Zurabishvili Interview with Formula News:

Journalist: This is the most important election in the history of 2024.

Salome Zurabishvili: The Georgian people's wisdom will guide them. There is no trust in the Georgian Dream anymore. We are at a crossroads: a choice between Russia and the EU. Georgian Dream has started drifting toward Russia, despite 80% of Georgians being pro-EU. They even use the EU flag because they know how pro-European our population is, but their actions lead us toward Russia.

To our people: don’t be afraid. What I said in Freedom Square still stands. You should not fear freedom. Your votes will be secret. The rumors about voting machines are false and deliberately spread to create fear. These machines are used in other countries too. Yesterday, there was even fear-mongering about imprisoning party leaders — don’t believe them. These elections will be peaceful, as long as people are ready to vote. Regarding the diaspora, there is so much mobilization, but unfortunately, many will not be able to vote. Only about 100,000 are registered. In the future, we will work harder to ensure participation in Georgia. Dual membership isn't a privilege; it's a right.

Journalist: Ukraine has given us hope, and Moldova has survived immense pressure.

Salome Zurabishvili: Russia can't achieve its goals in Ukraine. In Moldova, they spent a lot of money but still couldn’t win. The pro-Russian forces there are more active, but this is a great victory for Moldova. As I said, we will join the EU together. This is a “hybrid war.”

Journalist: What about a technical government?

Salome Zurabishvili: We are moving toward a crucial stage, where we must learn how to work within a coalition government. Four pro-Western parties hold the weight, and society will give them the votes. They must govern together. People are tired of the lack of real competition. We will say goodbye to the anti-democratic order, moving towards a European model of compromise and understanding. The coalition parties are our future. Once fear dissipates, we will see change.

These parties will be accountable to me to fulfill the Georgian Charter and get us to the EU quickly. I will demand results, and we will enact the necessary reforms swiftly. I will be here to ensure stability, and I will present a neutral, non-political candidate for prime minister to unite the coalition after the elections.

Journalist: After the elections, will the last word belong to you?

Salome Zurabishvili: I won’t let the vote slip from my hands. The parties will listen to me, and I will present the prime minister. Georgian Dream will be the first opposition party; they will still have a role in Parliament and at the municipal level. These elections will end the pressure on public officials — I've seen them being bused to protests. Public servants, the army, they all face intense pressure. My duty is to protect them.

Journalist: The US Ambassador and the talk about money — what’s your take?

Salome Zurabishvili: Their foreign policy is a mess and has left us isolated. Brussels has said there will be no “working things out” with this government. We must move forward without them. It’s absurd to talk about economic growth and employment when so many people have left the country.

Journalist: Why does Bidzina keep belittling politicians and claim he will figure things out?

Salome Zurabishvili: His conspiracy theories come straight from the USSR mindset. Look at how he talks about his money — his lawyers tried to convince him that Credit Suisse wasn’t influenced by the U.S. (laughs). Who has that kind of influence? Now, he says he’s fixed his money problems, but keeps spinning more theories. He talks about foreign representatives, but they’ve stopped naming names. They don’t know how to escape this web of conspiracy.

He is imprisoned by his own theories. He’s afraid of Russia, even though he’s succumbed to it. They use the occupied territories to stay relevant, but this is not a problem of Georgia’s elections — it’s Bidzina’s personal fear.